22 - Great Salespeople Listen DIFFERENTLY...Do You? | Chris Masterson

SPEAKER_00 0:23

Hello, everyone, and welcome back to another episode of Selling in the Dwelling, the In Home Sales and Remodeling Go To Podcast in the Industry. And I'm your host, Alan Langer from the Seven Secret Sales Academy. And today we're bringing aboard another heavy sales hitter, a gentleman who has been doing this for a long time and Chris Masterson. And I actually met Chris at Rilla, but we'll get into that in a few minutes. But before I bring Chris on, as we always start the podcast, I want you to remember our good friends at Paradigm Vendo. They are the title sponsor of this podcast. You can find them at paradigmvendo.com forward slash dwelling. More on them coming up later. And also visit the podcast website, sellinginthedwelling.com, because I'd like you to go there and click on the Ask Alan button and send me a question. If I read your question on an upcoming episode, you will get a free selling in the dwelling t-shirt. Cool stuff. So Chris Masterson from Cardinal Heating and Air Conditioning, Soon to Be Redwood Services. Welcome to the podcast. How are you, my friend? Good. Thank you for having me. No, this has been great. So Chris and I met at the Rilla conference back in February of this year. And I'll never forget, not only did we meet in person, I think we met after I gave my talk, but Chris did one of the most unique things I've ever seen on stage, and you'll probably never forget it, Chris, where you were live, you and two other sales leaders were fighting the AI robot machine and how you can help reps. I thought that was the coolest thing. So I want to get into that in a second, but first of all, welcome to the show. Tell me a little bit about, you know, not going to spend an hour on your background, but how did you get to where you are? You've been doing this for over 20 years, it seems, and uh, and now you're kind of moving along at Cardinal and now soon to be Redwood. So give us a little bit of background and your qualifications uh in the selling industry.

SPEAKER_01 2:12

Yeah, well, I'd love to tell you I've been uh selling, or at least selling the way we think about it, or managing for 20 years. I actually grew up in the Madison, Wisconsin area, went to college here, and then went into law enforcement. So I spent 16 years in law enforcement as a police officer, a full-time trainer, and then a detective before I left. So I got to experience a lot of different things. I think some of the big things that carried over to sales were professional communications, which I taught in our police academy, but then to a degree, use of force training, or we called it defensive and arrest tactics, because we're teaching people to position their body, to look for signs or signals through people's physical interactions. So yeah, so I did that for about 16 years. Left. I had a friend who I used to do CrossFit with, and he said, come sell for me. And I thought immediately, like, like drugs? Like, I don't know how to sell. And then I realized who owns a housing. Yeah, he owns a housing company. So uh I went and worked for Tim O'Brien Homes in the Madison, Wisconsin area and was selling new homes for about two and a half years. No kidding. Really loved the job. I mean, it's just so ironic as an officer. You you just think that you're so limited in what you can do when you leave, but realistically, you're talking to people is talking to people, and law enforcement gave me experience and opportunities to talk to people that were very different than I was and how I was raised. So very fortunate for that. Had a great time at Tim O'Brien Homes, but I really missed teaching and coaching. Um, sales is fun. Chasing, chasing that high on the sale was awesome, but I I kind of miss that that growth and watching people grow, learn, get better, succeed. So I actually had an opportunity come up, a local company, Cardinal, was looking for a sales manager. I had to do some creative thinking on they were looking for someone with managing experience, and I had none, uh, at least formal. So I went into the interview and it must have gone well. Very fortunate that they gave me a shot and an opportunity to lead the team as a sales manager. So, and I came into the industry, you know, I joked, but I did not know anything about HBAC. So I didn't know that part of the air conditioner sits on top of your furnace. Um, so I was pretty much as green as they came.

SPEAKER_00 4:28

So you know what's fascinating, Chris? When I was at, I sold at RBA, I'm not sure if you know this. I've sold at RBA for for about 13 years, and one of our top sales reps actually was a former cop. And he did his 20, 25 years, whatever you need to do to retire. And he got bored, and he's like, What am I gonna do? I'm like, Oh, and he saw this ad on Indeed about selling, and he's like, I'm gonna give it a shot. And he became very quickly a $3 million a year seller. And I used to go out to lunch with every now and then, and we would just chew the fat. And his biggest thing was his police training on how to read body language and how to read human beings was the key to his cell success. And that's a lot what I train now is is EQ and body language, and that comes a lot from being a police officer, right?

SPEAKER_01 5:14

Absolutely. Yep. We teach people they may be saying something, but you should be watching that body, their language, how their stance is, their shoulder shift, you know, where like all those things sort of add up together, and you can see it more at a high level in law enforcement. When we get into sales, you're looking for, you know, what body language means they're closed off, there's they're open, or you know, so that really helps even even silly things like if someone sits down and you stay standing, that doesn't feel good for the person sitting. So trying to make sure that we're at the level of the customer is a is a huge thing.

SPEAKER_00 5:47

I I still do ride-alongs with with many of my clients and and their reps. What are you seeing in the field? Because it's one of the biggest things that I see is the lack of paying attention to nonverbal signals. I think reps are so caught up today in following the process. I gotta, I gotta do my steps, and they're trained to do the steps. And you obviously need a process, but for me, if you're not nimble within the process, if you can't understand this person just glanced at his watch when you're talking about the energy efficiency of the glass, you just lost that customer and you just keep yammering on. Then you wonder when you leave, why didn't I make that sale? Is are you seeing that when you're during your training? And and and if you do, how do you how do you work with reps to kind of overcome that?

SPEAKER_01 6:28

Yeah, absolutely. Something that we see all the time. I think it might be getting worse because of just the change in sales. Like there's so many pieces of technology now sitting there that that we get drawn to it, our people selling get drawn to it. Um, as a police officer, it was a big one where as sort of like uh uh a nervous tip, people would pull their notebook out. I still remember my former training officer, Linda Bayman, would slap it out of our hands, but you'd pull that notebook out and you start writing, and you stop paying attention to people, you stop watching them and you see it all the time. People have questions they need to ask, and they don't want to miss it. So then they start reading from their sheet and we miss all that good connection. Um so I really, I really push. We have a process, but I consider it a guide, it's a little different. I consider it a guideline and or like stay within your lane. Like you can deviate within your own lane, you can you can be agile, nimble, as you said, and and kind of moving around. It doesn't always have to be A, B, C. Like if we need to go A C, we can skip that B occasionally. But I think allowing them the opportunity to kind of just go with the call a little more naturally helps because I think people get really nervous and try to pull it back in, or they stop paying attention because they're thinking about that next question they want to ask instead of just listening to learn.

SPEAKER_00 7:49

Yeah, and and they'll ask a question, the customer will give a really well thought out, well-spoken answer, and they don't even listen to it because they're thinking about the next question they have to ask.

SPEAKER_01 7:58

Yeah, how does the customer feel when you do that? And we talk all the time about open-ended questions. I mean, open-ended questions are huge, but it can't just be one. I see it a lot where my team will ask a great open-ended question and then they'll get a great answer, and then they're like, check that box, and I move on. It's like, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. This was amazing. Let's talk about this.

SPEAKER_00 8:19

So tell me a little more about that. You know, just stuff like that.

SPEAKER_01 8:22

Yeah. And so, like, that's one of the things that we train on. Because again, if if I'm listening to learn about what's important to you to understand you, I'm gonna pay more attention to you and your body language.

SPEAKER_00 8:35

Are you listening to learn? I'm writing that down as we speak right now. I love that. That might be on the uh on the thumbnail of this episode. Are you listening to learn? So I I'm gonna give shout out and props to Cardinal for hiring someone like you with no managerial experience. That took some guts on that. Why do you think you must have actually nailed the interview, but was it your police background that got them to say, let's give this guy a shot? What do you what do you think was the reason they said let's bring him in?

SPEAKER_01 9:03

You know, I still don't know. They were either uh they either saw something or they were like, let's just do it. Like, how bad could it be? So, you know, one of the things that I came in, I am huge on training. So one of the things during the interview process, they said, you know, tell us about you know how you envision running the team meetings. And I was like, Well, first we're not gonna have meetings, meetings can be done by emails, but trainings are what we do in person, so a lot of role-playing with different aspects of our sales process, a lot of getting up in front of the group and presenting, just getting uncomfortable so we can be more comfortable in homes. So yeah, that was something that before me, Cardinal did not really have that sort of an atmosphere. And yeah.

SPEAKER_00 9:47

So we mentioned pre-call. I I had Marcus Sheridan on a few podcasts ago, and his big thing is you know, reps don't practice enough, they don't do enough role-playing. It's like, you know, the the greatest athletes in the world, they don't win championships on the court. Michael Jordan said, I never won a championship on the court, I want it in a gym. And he goes, It's amazing that most sales reps practice on their customers. And you're, you know, what you're doing, you're not having meetings, you're having trainings, is definitely why you're successful because they have to be uncomfortable and go through those those motions to feel what it's like when they're in front of an actual customer. So uh I think that's brilliant what you're doing, and and obviously it's showing with your success.

SPEAKER_01 10:27

And I I definitely role playing is one of those things that is uncomfortable for people because we're not doing it enough. Like if we came in every day, and I, you know, Chris Hondel, my old sales coach at Nextstar, used to say, if we came in every day and we did 15 minutes of just role play every morning, after a few months, if we didn't do it, people will be like, this is weird not doing it. Can we do it? Because they're building that habit. But it is really uncomfortable. I mean, I tell my team, if you can role play this with someone who you know knows the process, they know when you're wrong, and you can go through and do it. Like they're your hardest critic, right? Like that is the toughest time in front of a customer. You could make stuff up, they'd never know, but you're part of it. They would never know. So that's why I love it is if you can do it in front of them, you can definitely do it in front of a customer.

SPEAKER_00 11:13

And you also have to have to have the culture to do that as well, because you can't have a team that's going to be judgmental or make fun of the guy that's up there, or you know, you we all hate it. Sales reps hate role playing. You can there's not one, I've never met a sales rep who says, Oh, I love to role play because it's uncomfortable. But again, when you make it a habit and it becomes something that they're used to doing, and the team embraces it and supports you, that's a whole different ballgame.

SPEAKER_01 11:38

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 11:39

Just from a little background, a little more background on Chris. He eight years ago, Cardinal was at five million. They are now at 75 million a year. And just in your three years, you went from size five salespeople to have over 20 now? I think you started.

SPEAKER_01 11:52

Correct, 20 outside sales, and we started an inside sales program a few months after I started that's up to three reps, and that team is killing it this year. They're aiming for about 12 million in closed sales.

SPEAKER_00 12:03

So inside sales, tell me what that means in a heating and cooling company.

SPEAKER_01 12:08

Yeah, so when I started, everybody would do their own follow-up, and everybody knows that sales folks, I was one of them, was not a fan of follow-up, like the grind, the everyday. I I want to stay focused on what's in front of me. So we have inside sales folks. Our inside sales team follows up starting the next morning after a call. So essentially the sales, outside salesperson gets the call the rest of the day. Inside sales follows up in the morning, and these guys, all they do all day long, they're answering text messages, telephone calls, emails. They're the ones that sort of take over the communication with the customer. And they work with our outside sales team. So it is a team collaboration. And on some areas, as soon as the outside sales rep leaves, the inside sales rep takes over, and the outside sales rep's no longer a part of that deal. We've we've structured ours a little differently. So there's some teamwork in there.

SPEAKER_00 13:00

You know, and I like that because there's many sales reps, just like they don't like role-playing, they don't like rehash. You know, there's I was one, I'll be honest. If I didn't sell it, I know I was good at follow-up. I wanted to follow up, but I got pissed when some when a rehash guy went in and in 20 minutes sold my job that I spent two and a half hours building building the uh the rapport with. So how do you guys work with? I'm assuming the outside person still gets a piece of the commission at the inside. Yeah, so that's really cool.

SPEAKER_01 13:29

Yep. There wasn't a playbook, especially in the HVAC world, so or home services world. So we sort of made it up. I will admit, I have failed a lot in my role, but you fail fast and you learn faster. So we've pivoted and made changes. But yeah, it was uh there's some headbutting in the beginning, but now that we're about three years in, it's smooth, everyone knows the process. You may or not may not be happy. You know, I you always get the sales guy who says I closed that in the house, and they just didn't even want to, they didn't even sign it till the next day, and I lost a sale. And it's like, yeah, how many times do you walk in a house and I hear you hear the customer saying, just tell me when you can do it. I don't care about the price. And it's like, you know, right. We all we all get those.

SPEAKER_00 14:10

So yeah, exactly, exactly. So this is selling in the dwelling. We we we we spent a lot of time with the traditional in-home sales, windows, siding, roofing. But you guys, HVAC, plumbing, electrical are a little different because you really have probably service techs that act as salespeople. Is that is that correct? Do you guys have salespeople and then send the service people? How are you guys structured?

SPEAKER_01 14:34

Yeah, so we have a little bit of everything. So our service teams go out uh when a customer calls and they'll do inspections. Um, we have plumbing electrical as well, so they'll look at whatever's out there. If the customer indicates, hey, you know, the fix might not be something that's worth it, you know, whether it's my first air conditioner's getting old, my water heater's getting old, my electric panel's getting old. You know, I just like some options on replacement over repair, we would send the outside sales team out. So the outside sales team goes. Because the service tech's just there to repair. Their job is not to really sell in the home, it's to give options to customers, kind of educate the customer on what solutions are possible. And if it's aged, you know, they give them the option of we can call a comfort advisor out and give you the option of replacement of the equipment.

SPEAKER_00 15:25

Yeah, so you're a little unique because most of the time in your industry, I hear that the service technicians are also active as the salespeople. They're trying to sell the job and also fix the problem at the same time. Did you guys think about having that as a structure? And if so, why are you not doing that?

SPEAKER_01 15:42

Yeah, we did that about eight, nine years ago and we moved away from it. We wanted to really separate the service tech from someone who's selling in the house. I always said you can be really great and excellent at one thing, or you can be good at everything. And so I feel like at Cardinal, we've really focused on being excellent in one category. So our service technicians are top-notch. I mean, they're amazing. They service our house. Uh, they have been for the last almost four years. Love it every time they come, they're awesome. But we want to make them service technicians and we want to make our outside sales folks outside sales because trying to train a technician, sales techniques is very hard. And I don't really think you're gonna I don't really think you're gonna train any of the sales guys to be service technicians.

SPEAKER_00 16:29

Yeah, so devil's advocate here. So let's say you have an emergency situation. You say you did plumbing, let's say a hot water heater blows up and it's flooding a basement. You're set, you're obviously sending out the service technician. I'm assuming they could sell a hot water heater. You're not gonna say, okay, let me get the the sales rep out here tomorrow morning when the basement's photos. So how do you handle a situation like that?

SPEAKER_01 16:49

Yeah, so those in in that situation, specifically for plumbing, we would just they could replace it right on site. That's something that they can quote on site. Furnaces and air conditioners are a little different just because of the size, the complexity, but quick swapping a uh water heater is something they could do. They'll call outside sales if you were to say, hey, love my tank water heater, but would love to look at a you know on-demand or tankless water heater, you know, what options do you have? We have really tight municipalities around here that have very tight code. So we send out an outside sales rep just to do water calculations to make sure that we can do it and do it safely.

SPEAKER_02 17:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 17:26

Oh, that's cool. That that's really neat. Hey, sellers, when your rep sits down with a homeowner and it's time to present the product and close the deal, the experience they have created from the moment they walked in the door until the time at that kitchen table is either winning the job or losing it. That's why I'm proud to have Paradigm Vendo as the title sponsor of Selling in the Dwelling. Paradigm Vendo, that's P-A-R-A-D-I-G-M Vendo with a V, is the industry's leading digital selling solution built specifically for in-home sales professionals, featuring real-time quoting direct from product manufacturers, dynamic presentations, e-signatures, and even CRM integration all on not only any device, but it's all in one place. No more jumping around from one software platform to another. Streamline your entire sales process and create an amazing experience for the homeowner wanting to work with you. Check it out at paradigmvendo.com forward slash dwelling. Again, paradigm P-A-R-A-D-I-G-M Vendo with a V dot com forward slash dwelling. Paradigm Vendo, sell smarter and close more. Hey sales professionals. Are you proud of your profession? Are you proud of being in sales? Well, you know what? You really should be, and it's time to start showing it. And that's why I created my new merchandise shop, the sevensecrets shop.net. It's the the number sevensecretshop.net. And there you can find great hats, t-shirts, beanies, water bottles, phone covers, all kinds of really fun merchandise with great sayings like I love sales or sales rocks, or even for your kids, my dad is a sales rock star, my mom is a sales superstar. Visit the sevensecretshop.net with the number seven, and you can pick out anything you want to show your love of what you do for a living. The sevensecrets shop.net, visit it today. All right, let's switch gears for a second. You mentioned earlier on you you mentioned the word technology. There's so much technology now. Like even the last five years, technology has probably quadrupled in the home. And actually that's why I'll give Paradigm Vendo a a quick shout out, because they have a platform that has kind of everything in one spot. But many companies right now have two or three or four platforms that the reps have to go back and forth in in the home. And I think that that really takes away from the experience that they're giving the homeowner because it could it could get cumbersome or confusing or you know that they look like they may not know what they're doing. But specifically, I want to bring up Rilla because you were at Rilla, that's where we met. How have you guys been utilizing, and for folks who don't know, and you know, if you're under a rock, you don't know Rilla, Rilla is a recording software you can record on your iPad, you record the conversation, and AI analyzes it for you and tells you what you hit, what you didn't hit, all these different things off of different metrics. How are you guys been utilizing Rilla and how has it changed your closing percentages or your success in the house?

SPEAKER_01 20:24

So we've been using Rilla since uh September, October of 2023. So we were kind of early on board. I love it, and it came from law enforcement where body cameras were becoming normal. Uh it was something that outside of my the city of Madison where I worked that doesn't have body cams yet, which is crazy to me.

SPEAKER_00 20:42

Other agencies, Wisconsin does not have body cameras?

SPEAKER_01 20:46

Yeah, it's all of yeah, I don't know how, because if you ask any officer, they'd say we want them for the same reason as a sales rep, I'd want it. Not only is it CYA, like sales reps, a majority of the time, 99th percent of the time, they do the right thing, but you can learn from it, you can get better. Like officers can't use their performance and then get paid more, they get paid the same regardless. Yeah, but now we have this technology that sales guys can go in, salespeople, and they can listen to what other people do, they can listen to what they do, they can combine it. So it's just an amazing tool to be able to see it. If you think about footage from games like football games, basketball games, these professional athletes are watching the last play, and it's like something that we've never done in sales. So I love the idea. It's been a huge proponent. Yeah, we've been with Rilla, and it's uh from day one, and I think they'd acknowledge it, their first app that they had was it was okay. It did what it did, right? It recorded, transcribed. You could kind of go through it. Now it's it's amazing. I mean, there's AI built into it. We actually gave it to our install team recently. So if the installers are like, why did the customer get told we could do this? They can link. Listen to the call and be like, oh, we didn't promise this. This was a a misunderstanding, and it's helped that relationship between the install and the sales team.

SPEAKER_00 22:06

So oh, that's huge. That's that's a that's a great component. I didn't even think about that. How how you can do that? Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 22:11

Yeah. But yeah, we uh so I started with five sales reps. We're up to over 20 outside sales reps now. I use it every day. Uh I can do anywhere from if I'm have a lot of downtime, 20, 25 ride-along. So, you know, something that would literally take me a week. I can get done in maybe two, three hours. But I can go through and it's something that you can teach from. There's like the CYAPs. Now, Rilla, I know you said that you saw the three humans against the one AI. Yeah, yeah. They do have AI now. Autopilot is out, and it leaves it. You tell it, hey, I want you to act like you know the top four sales coaches that I can think of. And you list who they are and say, I just want you to leave two pieces of feedback on every call, like you're one of these four sales coaches, and it leaves the feedback. So now they're getting the AI feedback and they're getting my feedback so they can kind of see like maybe they take better to some feedback than others. So that's really cool. And now they have an LMS that we've been using as well, where you can actually role play with AI, and you can actually roleplay one of your last calls. It'll pull that decision point that didn't go well, and you can role play that right in the app itself. So you can kind of leave that call, do the role play, and end on a positive note instead of sitting there thinking, you know, the swirling toilet analogy of like, what did I do wrong? What did I do wrong? I never do right, and then you're never gonna sell anything.

SPEAKER_00 23:42

So it's that was a that was a great appointment. Why didn't I sell that?

SPEAKER_01 23:45

How many reps have ever said that, you know, driving away from and then they sit there and they think about it, and it goes into their next call and their next call, and the next thing you know, they're on the dive.

SPEAKER_00 23:54

So okay. Do you think, in the position you're in and where you've been now, you've you've worn body cams, you've now got Rilla, do you think we'll ever get to the point in the house we're actually filming like a cop on a body cam? Think that would ever happen in this society?

SPEAKER_01 24:08

I think there is a company in Colorado, if I'm not mistaken, that that does wear body cams. And I think it was in one of their technicians was accused of something. Um, and this is sort of how they responded. But Wow. I don't know if I'd want a technician wearing a body camera around my house, just personally.

SPEAKER_00 24:27

Yeah, that's why I think I'm I'm thinking of the homeowners, and I'm not sure. I think it's okay for homeowners to say, yeah, you can record this. They're kind of everyone's used to, yeah, this is going to be recorded for quality assurance, but it's a different ball game when you're recording with a camera.

SPEAKER_01 24:42

Yeah, I think you kind of move away. Everybody knows your device listens to you. I mean, you talk about something, and the next thing you know, you've seen ads for it on your phone all the time. So it's like right clearly it's listening, but I think you've you've taken that next step now when you want to record, especially when we walk through someone's entire house. Now all your business is being recorded. So yeah.

SPEAKER_00 25:03

And all their and all their possessions and everything in their house. Yeah. I I I don't think it's gonna happen unless something weird, you know, you know, occurs. But I'll tell you a quick funny story. When I was selling, I joked with Sebastian over at Rilla because uh prior to him, even you know, he was probably 12 when this when when the iPhone came out. But I used to when I first got my first iPhone in 2009, I noticed, oh, there's a record button on here. And I'd hit record and put it in my pocket and I'd walk in the house. I never told him I was recording, which was illegal. I found out later, but I would record my my conversations and I got a lot better. Just listening to my conversations afterward got me better from a recording standpoint. But this one summer I brought my son, who was probably 13 at the time, to three appointments with a video camera, and I'd walk in and I'd say, My son has a school project, he needs to film what dad's doing at work. Can we film this? And they're like, Oh, this is cute. So all three customers were great. I gotta tell you what I got out of that because now I could see body language. So it was amazing, but I couldn't take my 13-year-old on every appointment I had. So it was it, it only happened three times, but it was really effective for sure. The most amazing sales team. Yeah, exactly. Right. Just bring it, just bring your your your your six-year-old daughter in, you're gonna sell every single time. Oh, this is great stuff. So you've been doing this for a while now. With Rilla and with the technology, or even you know, even the ride-alongs, are you seeing anything that you're correcting the most besides the open-ended questions that you mentioned? Is there something else that you would impart on our audience to say, hey, listen, sales teams out there are doing this more and more, or what should we be looking for as a sales leader?

SPEAKER_01 26:41

Gosh, I don't know where to take this one. I I really think that one of the things that we miss as sales coaches, sales leader is the physical ride-along. When we go on that ride-along, like we teach everybody, you know, and this is when we when I spoke at Rilla, it was the same thing. If we're teaching something, that should be like isolating a safe environment, like a classroom. Then we go and we practice with role play, we get reps at it, and then we go to a customer's house. So like they know how to do whatever it is. Put your shoe covers on. You know, we we talk about why, we practice it, we do it with a homeowner. When I go on a ride along when we get done with that call, what I see and what I've seen is that people want to pick apart everything that went it that happened in the call. Everything was bad, everything that was good. And it's really hard for us as it's it's how I was raised is uh I'm gonna tell you what you did wrong and what you did right. If we want behavior to be repeated, we have to make sure that the student understands. So if the student can identify it again, if you taught them, they should know right from wrong. So when we get done with our sales calls, there's just three simple questions is what went well. And I keep asking if is there anything else? Is there anything else? And I just want to know what they think went well because what they think might have gone well, it may have been bad. So you're getting that it's almost the same thing we do with customers, right? You're asking questions. They say, I did this, tell me about that. You know, what made you do this, or what's this? Or we're asking those open-ended questions to drive them to really think about it. But then I want to know that they can identify what's not going well. Because if they say, Yeah, the call went perfect, but they never put their shoe covers on. The question is, like, did we really teach them and they understand it? Are they did they crawl, walk, run, or did we just go right to run and and they missed a step? So I really like that. And it when I started, that was not what happened before. Before me, they were told what they did wrong. After a few months, after you kind of break the barrier, they would ask, they you would just they'd start telling you what they did right every call. And it was amazing to see it. I stole this straight from law enforcement. So, like, no, this was nothing I created. This is how right-alongs in law enforcement are working. After a call, you know, they'll ask, What did you have? Just give me the facts. What did you like? And what if anything would you change if you could do this again? So now you're you're thinking about that creativity. So you like look at Bloom's taxonomy, and if I can take a set of circles of facts and then recreate it and come out to a better, different conclusion, I'm more likely to remember that and then repeat that in the future.

SPEAKER_00 29:23

Wow, that's really fascinating. I've never heard of that in sales. So you so you're saying you're asking these specific questions just so the reps are thinking about the appointment in a different way, they would think about it themselves. Because you're usually not honest with yourself in most cases.

SPEAKER_01 29:40

Yeah. And if you get them to be honest with themselves, be self-critical. So, you know, one of the big ones is we miss it all the time, the spouse. So we want to talk about decision makers early in calls, anybody else involved in decisions like these within the home. So a lot of times I'll say at the after the call, you know, we've gone through what's gone well. And you'll the cool thing is you'll learn a lot about personalities. I would just jump to telling you what I would change, but I have to tell you the positives because a lot of people skip the positives, but they people do things well in calls. And if you can tie an emotion to, yeah, I did this and it was great, they're gonna repeat that. They're gonna remember that. But this false objection, I'll get a guy, I'll get one of my sales reps who's like, Yeah, I missed the spouse objection question. And instead of saying yes, it's like, well, tell me, where would you have put it? I put it right after, you know, I go through the process. What would you have said? Uh would have, you know, asked. Let's role play this quick. And we get a quick role play in and then we just move on. So, like, that's great. They're they're learning. It's not like me telling you you're doing it wrong, and it's a lot of like self-discovery.

SPEAKER_00 30:40

Wow, that's that that's fascinating stuff. Really, really good stuff, Chris. So just because it it just popped in my head again, the whole Rilla thing that you were on stage was so fascinating. So for for folks who aren't there, and there were a lot of people there, Chris was next to two other sales leaders on stage in front of what, a thousand people, maybe they were there, or something like that.

SPEAKER_01 31:00

Oh, yes.

SPEAKER_00 31:00

You by the way, you didn't look nervous at all. You looked really you look very, very nervous. That's good because I was very nervous. I'm sure you were, and they had these giant screens and their scores were behind their heads, and then the AI computer was fighting them based on real live interaction, and they were typing and stuff, and it was fascinating stuff, and it was one of the most entertaining things I've seen. And and you survived it. But how did you get involved with like did they approach you and ask you to do that? And and what was your reaction when they did?

SPEAKER_01 31:27

Yeah, so I sit on the coach advisory board, so there's probably about 12 of us that sit on the board. We meet two, three times a year, and we just sit down and we talk with Rilla and we talk about where the product is, where it's going, where it's been. And at this meeting, they needed to fill in for a little bit. So I just filled in and played the role, and I found out a few weeks later, this is during like a training testing thing, that they wanted me to be on it. So I was it was really cool. So I was up there with my buddy Keith, who was also on the coach advisory board with me. And yeah, it was uh a ton of fun. And uh, you talk about practice and you practice, practice, practice for the game. Sebastian must have made us go through that no joke 20, 25 times on stage. No kidding. Oh wow.

SPEAKER_00 32:17

I was wondering what kind of practice went into that.

SPEAKER_01 32:18

Yeah, just constant practice. It was it was uh it was really cool. So uh, and it's on YouTube. I don't think I'll remember or ever forget. Sorry, the rumbling floor. Like as you stood on it, the subs underneath were so big that the whole floor was vibrating when we were up there. It was pretty crazy.

SPEAKER_00 32:40

Fascinating stuff. Well, check it out on YouTube. I'm sure you can find a Rilla, what would it be called on YouTube? Uh it's like Rilla Co-Pilot. I think it's a co-pilot, yeah. Yeah, something like that. All right, before we get to the Ask Allen segment, I want to ask you one more question because we're talking about a lot of probably personality stuff and how reps are in the house and everything. Are you involved in a hiring, getting the new reps in? And if you are, are you looking for specific personality types? Are you asking specific questions to get the type of rep that you want, or maybe looking for something that, like, yeah, I know this guy's gonna be successful? You have one or two things that you look for in a hiring situation?

SPEAKER_01 33:17

For me, it's culture. Culture is gonna be a big one. I have to trust that you're gonna do the right thing. I have to trust that I would want you in my house with around my family. So that's gonna be the first thing I look for. And then the second is just can you communicate or are you open to learning? So I don't know if it's generational. I don't want to say that because I feel like we're stereotyping, but I feel like people who can communicate, make eye contact, actually listen. It's such a it's such a rare gift these days. You just don't see it a lot in interviews. They just come in and start shoving, shoving, shoving, and they're not asking questions and and really looking to learn. So, like those are the big pieces for me is I can teach anybody to sell. I can obviously teach anybody about HVAC because I've if I can figure it out, everybody can figure it out. So then it's like, are you a good culture fit? Can you be trusted? And and are you open to learn and can you can you communicate with other people? Those are my big ones. I mean, I've hired one sales outside sales rep that's car sales. I have one who's a teacher who's a special education teacher in schools, one who did agriculture seed, one who worked at Costco. I they come from every walk of life, and they all have one thing in common that I would trust them in my own house because I think I know they're gonna do the right thing and they listen and they're open for feedback. They want to learn.

SPEAKER_00 34:40

I think one of the biggest mistakes that companies make when they're looking for new hires is they'll put in the ad prior home home selling experience necessary. I think that's a huge mistake. Huge. I I don't want someone with prior home selling experience because they could have been trained by some bozo who doesn't know how to sell, or they have this awful high pressure system. I'd love to get like the police officer or the the special ed teacher, or you know, I I was just speaking with someone from RBA. Their top rep was a Nordstrom Nordstrom sales shoe salesperson. So like that's who you want. You want people who can talk to people, basically, and they like them.

SPEAKER_01 35:14

And if that's what we did in law enforcement, we never picked, oh, we hired you because you already know all this stuff. The problem is we don't know what they know. And once we figure it out, it takes longer to untrain and retrain than just train someone the right way the first time.

SPEAKER_00 35:27

So hundred percent. Hey sellers, quick question. Your best rep walks into a home and closes the sale. Now picture everyone else on your team in that same home. Is it the same result? For most companies, the answer is no. And that's not a talent problem. That could very well be a readiness problem. See, that's why I want to tell you about our good friends over at Engage, I-N-G-A-G-E, the sponsor of the Ask Allen segment coming up next. Engage is the industry's leading interactive and dynamic sales presentation software built specifically for the in-home sales industry. And it works wonderfully with our title sponsor, Paradigm Vendo. And right now, Engage has a free sales readiness playbook that shows you exactly where your team is ready and where the gaps may be costing you sales. And it takes just minutes to complete. You need to check it out for free at salesplan.engage.io. That's salesplan one word.engage I-n-g-a-g E dot IO. Because in this business, your presentation isn't just part of the sale. It could very well make or break the entire sale. That's salesplan.engage.io. Visit them today. All right. It is now time you heard the choir singing, uh, the Ask Alan segment, my favorite part of the podcast. And this is a question from Patrick in Clearwater, Florida. I saved this question specifically for Chris because Patrick does work for a heating and cooling company. So here's Patrick's question. I am what they call a comfort advisor for a plumbing, heating, and cooling company here in Florida. These days, homeowners can get plumbing quotes pretty quickly and pretty easily. From a rep's perspective, how do I differentiate myself when the homeowner thinks that all we do are basically sell the same thing? So that's a really good question because I think a lot of reps, no matter what they're selling, run into that. Where how do you differentiate yourself? So, how would you answer that, Chris?

SPEAKER_01 37:27

You know, I this is a good question on Patrick's part. I get asked this a lot myself. It is hard because a lot of companies sell the same equipment. And that's why we have to separate the equipment from what we're going through. So as a sales manager, I have a team that would tell you 50% of the time they don't even talk about brand with the customer. Because at the end of the day, it's your company that you're trusting and instilling this trust in to come in and to hook up something that uses fire, gas, electric, and water all in the same unit. Like, so we have a lot of that. I think the other thing that really separates you from everyone else is you. And I think the sale, our our sales folks just we don't think about that as like you are the face of the company. So if you go in there, you're sharply dressed, you can answer questions, you're you are listening to understand, listening to learn, not listening to answer. I think that's the big difference. Those, and then I would tell every selling rep out there, like, know your company's three uniques. You know, Cardinals been in business for over 40 years, has over 5,000 five-star reviews, and we run our own university for HVAC. So in the state of Wisconsin, there's really no license needed to install, remove, or fix HVAC equipment. We choose to send all of our new hires through Cardinal University, gives them three to four months where we pay for them to go to school. We teach them how we do things at Cardinal, why we're the best, and they come out helping our customers. So like making sure that your sales reps know whatever those three techniques are, unique are for your company is huge.

SPEAKER_00 39:01

You guys are like the Wild West out there in Wisconsin. No body cams, no, no uh certification to put in H.

SPEAKER_01 39:08

Just for HPAC.

SPEAKER_00 39:10

Yeah, no, it's uh plumbing electric. They they have that on lockdown though. I have that on okay, that's good. You you stole my thunder a little bit, but this is how I would answer Patrick's question or add to what you just said, Chris. The differentiator is you. Like 10 years ago, 15 years ago, yeah, there were, you know, you had manufacturers who were here, and then you had some crappy ones, and you had some middle ones, and you have some good ones. Now everyone has good product. Every window company makes a good window, every roofing shingle is good. Those are no longer differentiators. And even you get down to the nitty-gritty of, well, our company's the best, and you know, our installers are the best, and this is the best, and we have these warranties. Everyone is saying the same shit. The differentiator is you, and I would go back to what you said before, and the amount of open-ended questions you ask. The more open-ended questions you ask, the more you differentiate yourself as the rep they want to do business with. And they may not even know why, they're just gonna like you more because you just asked more questions. So I would say to Patrick, ask more open-ended questions because you're the differentiator. And I even you used to use this line myself. I would say to people, and I sold RBA, and RBA was, you know, that's a great window. But I would say, hey, you can get good windows from Pella, from Marvin, from even Champion, whatever it was, but nobody else has me. You got Mr. and Mrs. Smith, you get me. And I'm gonna take care of you. And that one line, when you say that with conviction, people are like, oh my God, yeah, I want to work with this guy. So the differentiator, I think, Patrick, and what Chris said is you.

SPEAKER_01 40:40

Absolutely. I think open-ended questions. The other one I've been using lately, and I stole it, is be interested, not interesting to a customer. And I think that's huge too, making sure that they're they are the highlight and the focus of your attention while you're in that house.

SPEAKER_00 40:57

Yeah, that's that's amazing. Great stuff. Well, we're running out of time, Chris. I want to thank you for being on. Now, I know you're working for Cardinal and you're you're transitioning to Redwood, which is a a private equity firm, but a really good one that you we we talked about before. So good luck with that. But if anyone wants to say hi to you, is there where's the best place to find you? LinkedIn is the best place, or is any anybody?

SPEAKER_01 41:15

LinkedIn is probably the best place. Yeah, I don't know what my new email address is going to be, but yeah, LinkedIn is I try to do one post a week, is my goal.

SPEAKER_00 41:22

So Yeah, that that's good. And it's Chris C-H-R-I-S, Masterson, M-A-S-T-E-R-S-O-N. So look him up on LinkedIn. He does have some pretty cool posts. I like the one you recently did with the AI graphics uh in the car. That was a pretty cool one.

SPEAKER_02 41:35

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 41:36

All right, Chris, thank you for being on. And I want to thank everyone out there for joining us on this edition of Selling in the Dwelling. Remember, visit the website sellinginthwelling.com and send me a question. Hopefully, you'll get a free t-shirt. And visit Paradigm Vendo, the best in-home software you can find in the remodeling in home selling space. That's it for now. Everyone, take care. We'll see you next time on Selling in the Dwelling.