25 - Is Downselling Better Than Upselling? | Louie Katsis

SPEAKER_01 0:23

Hey everyone, and welcome back to another episode of Selling in the Dwelling, the go-to podcast for the in-home remodeling and in-home sales space. And I'm your host, Alan Langer of the Seven Secret Sales Academy, and once again got another great guest, but not from the United States, from our northern neighbors in Canada. We've got Louis Katsk joining us in a few minutes. But before I bring on Louis, just a few housekeeping notes. The podcast, as always, is sellinginthedwelling.com. And please click on the Ask Alan button in the top right corner. If you click on that button and send me a question and I ask the question in a later show, you will get a free selling in the dwelling t-shirt. And we've got a really good question coming up later from Dave in Grand Rapids, Michigan. And also don't forget to visit our title sponsor, Paradigm Vendo. It's paradigmvendo.com forward slash dwelling for the best in-home selling software you can find in the industry. Well, let's get going with Louis Katzis from Olympic Kitchens over in Toronto, which is north of me. I'm in Rhode Island. I've never been to Toronto, so maybe you can invite me up there, Louis. But welcome to the show. How are you? Good, good, Alan. Happy to be here. You're invited anytime. Let's break some bread. So I know your baseball team's not making the playoffs this year, so I would have come up to watch the Yankees. But thanks for the reminder. So Louie is on the show because he's been in the business of selling high-end stuff to homeowners for over 30 years. Olympic Kitchens was actually started, uh, and correct me if I'm wrong, Louis, by your father and your uncle in 1973. So we're looking at 53 years now of being in business. You were probably carrying cabinets way back when you were younger for your dad, I'm sure. And now you took over 30 years ago. And it's really one of the highest rated companies out there with cabinet making and kitchens and things like that. So I wanted to talk to Louie about this type of stuff because we talk a lot about windows and doors and siding, roofing, and things like that. But high-end sales in in the home is you know kind of a different kind of animal, especially when you have such a high design component to it. So tell me a little bit about how you took over the business and what you've seen going over the years of these 30 years. Like basically, what has changed? Like you've seen 30 years ago to now. What what has changed in the homeowner and then how you how do you go about what you do on a daily basis?

SPEAKER_00 2:43

Wow, I'll I'll I'll try to keep this short. We probably need two hours to go through really how it's changed. It's changed immensely. I mean, 32 years ago, I bought our first computer in the office, you know.

SPEAKER_03 2:54

Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_00 2:55

Um we had a fax machine before then. We didn't have we didn't have educated clients. Clients didn't know what they wanted. You you told them what they wanted back then. Yeah. Now they're coming in fast and furious with ideas, and and your job now is to filter through them and even, you know, upsell them in cases, downsell them in cases, and get them to a point that, you know, makes sense for them, not just what it looks like, budget is important. But in the beginning, it was really um it was a really great entry point into the business because you know, I've not done sales. I I worked at CCL, Consumer Contact Limited, doing phone sales. That was my sales experience. So I got into the business uh in a small company. We're making $300,000 a year. There's six people in the company. We had uh office manager, Jocelyn, and we had a sales guy, Albert, who was just waiting for people to knock on the door. There was actually no outreach, no marketing. But it was it was kind of like how business ran in that industry back then. It was just really old school. And then I saw an opportunity because I think at a at our core of who we are, we do an amazing job. Care in the product we put out. And knowing that, I said, let's let's tell more people about this. Let's get out there and do more marketing and and and and tell people who we are. You know, it's it's changed so immensely even today now with AI. It's like it's like we're resetting. I really feel that way. I almost feel as invigorated as I did the day I started, full of piss and vinegar and and hope. I I kind of feel the same way today.

SPEAKER_01 4:33

Hmm. That and that's a great point because what AI, and even you know, Google search prior to AI now, but you were right. The consumer has become so educated, and every consumer, I don't care their age anymore, they're they're researching you before you get there. They they know many times. I I heard a sales manager tell me once, he goes, I think a lot of our customers know more than our sales reps right now about our product. Like literally, they're doing so much research, and not everybody, but even if they are in their 80s, you know their grandkids are doing the research for them or their kids are doing the research for them, and they don't want to get ripped off by the salesperson. So they're putting, they used to call it informational ammunition, like they're ready. I have so much information. You can't rip me off, Mr. Salesperson or Mr. Contractor. So have you seen, like now, you go in, you sit down, they've got a million ideas, they're probably showing you a bunch of pictures on Pinterest and all these things that they want for their kitchen. Do you have a design program to help with that? Like, how do you approach someone who's, you know, basically starting from square one is they wouldn't they know what they want, but they still have to design it. How do you how do you get that conversation going?

SPEAKER_00 5:38

Yeah, so it it varies. I mean, there's three uh points. I think it's important in context to understand it. Our business, high-end cabinetry, there's three entry points for client experience. One is interior designer-led, where they come to us with more somewhat fully baked ideas. The other element is custom home builders. We don't do production homes, but they do one custom home. And those guys come to us early just looking for a line number.

unknown 6:05

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 6:06

And then the third is client facing. So, you know, I will say in all those three camps, no one has fully baked specs. So, you know, the challenge with selling kitchens, it's not a window. You don't have dimensions, glass, spec, color, quantity, spit out a number. There's no program that's going to give you a number. So all we're doing in the beginning is talking about budget. But budget doesn't get you that far if you're if you have no idea what you're doing. So the real exactly, yeah, the real challenge is getting to understand what they're trying to achieve. What are their pain points? And ultimately, when a the image starts when it starts getting developed, we have some semblance of an anchor or foundation to say to them, hey, you're looking for a Tyota. We don't do Tyres. You know, you can maybe this company is a better fit for you. Or I can say, you know, you're looking for a Mercedes. That's what we do. You know, we we have different price points in that that line of product, much like Mercedes has different price points, but every Mercedes is a good car. Just depending on what features you want, which we have to develop. And then there's other clients who talk Lamborghini. That's a very different conversation, right? They know they want a Lamborghini, but they have no idea what the interior is, the sound system, they have no idea. So it's impossible in all those uh situations to price anything, you know, and that's the challenge of the kitchen industry. So right now we kind of develop budgets. We say to a person right off the gate, we don't run to their house if they're looking for a kitchen. We say, look, what are you looking for? Send us some pictures of your existing space, send us some photos, and we get back to them and say, look, it starts at $100,000. Where we begin this conversation. And the sky's the limit, right? You can tell me what your budget is, we can try to work within it. Now more than ever, six out of 10 people that come to us as a client looking for a kitchen will hear that 100,000 and say, we're not the right fit. And really getting to know faster is really something we focus on. And it's not dismissive in any way, it's just respecting everyone's time.

SPEAKER_01 8:20

And you that point right there where you say we start at 100,000, you're telling the customer how much your kitchens are, what they could be. It could be 100,000, and you said go up to the sky's limit. You're gonna be between 100 and 300,000, whatever it is, based on what you choose. And today, more than ever, I I've been saying this, you know, for the last few years, consumers are no longer searching for you know, kitchen remodelers near me. They're gonna say, they're typing in how much is a new kitchen in Toronto? And that's where they're starting. And if you don't show that or have any type of semblance of a price range, either on your website or in that first conversation, they're going somewhere else. They don't want to sit there for, you know, in in the case of a window or roof for three hours and then find out what the price is. They want to know an idea before you even get to the house. And what you're doing, I think, is brilliant because I think so many other contractors saying, all right, well, give me all your specs and then I'll send you the price in three weeks. They don't want that anymore, right?

SPEAKER_00 9:17

No. We we used to do it that way. This has actually been a bit of a shift that began in the pandemic when I didn't want to send my sales team out to, you know, we didn't know what was happening March 2020. I didn't want we were still in business, and luckily we were lucky in Toronto during the pandemic because we were deemed a manufacturer, we were allowed to stay open. I know companies in your area that had to shut down and other parts of the US, and that probably was devastating. We were very fortunate, but trying to do business in that landscape in a business where we need to go to someone's house, I started telling people very truly and honestly through email what pricing would be. And that's kind of where it started. I also noticed that to get to that price, so budget and price are two very different things, to get to the honest price, it's a ton a ton of work. And it's it's laboress, but also it it's not fun for clients. Clients don't want to go through specs and specs and pick this, and there's a lot of pressure to get to an honest price. So now what we do is you know, meet the client in the house, take measurements, and give them a budget, and then ask for a 20% retainer. You know, and and the tricky thing is we're asking for for payment to develop a design that in the client's mind doesn't exist. They don't actually see in their head what they're getting at that point. But they have to get to a point where they say, you know what, I'm doing this, I trust this company to bring my ideas to life. Let's go.

SPEAKER_01 10:51

So now you're dealing with a six-figure project, or you know, it could be low, six-figure, high stake, but it's you're gonna be in the six figures. How do you make the conversation not all about the price? How do you how do you go about building that trust first for them to say, okay, here's 30 grand or here's 20 grand for a retainer when I don't even know what you're gonna come up with yet. So you got to have some sort of trust built to ask for that check.

SPEAKER_00 11:16

100%. And and really, I think it boils down to listening, you know, listening to and asking the right questions. You know, what are the pain points? What don't you like about your kitchen? You know, why you're doing this now? Why didn't you do it a year ago? Why, why, why now is is a great question, right? And that that usually yields some interesting answers. But also understanding that, you know, in all the buckets I explained, designer, builder, client, we want to position ourselves as a project partner, not a supplier of boxes and doors. We're there every step of the way of the process. Even though our job is designing and building and installing cabinetry, there's contractors that need help, electricians, plumbers. We let them know that, you know, we're we're gonna help, we're gonna be the most important project partner in this renovation for you. Because we're not only designing the space, we're helping every one of the team members you choose to bring on or ones we bring on. We're supporting everyone to get you to the finish line. That's not something every kitchen company is offering, right? A salesperson in any industry wants to sell. In our business, the work begins after the sale, really and truly. You know, I feel that for me, selling is really uh getting to know someone, getting to know their goals, bringing ideas that excite them is a huge way to get set trust. You know, they might say, I want this and that. I'm like, have you thought about this? Because I think piggybacking your idea, combining this and this and this will make a better result. You can see it in their eyes. Oh, you're right. That's actually, I really like that idea. And then you know, turns to her husband, honey, I really like that idea. You know, and that's when you get that kind of that's what the the the juice starts flowing and everyone starts interacting because it is interactive, right? A lot of people think of an interior designer, you know, you just give them money and they design your space. It's not like that at all. It's it's interaction, it's understanding what you want, it's it's pushback here and there. Yeah, no, maybe I don't I don't want that. I just what woke up this morning and said, I don't want that. Okay, no problem. Let's let's pivot, let's adjust. So, really, uh I think it's an understanding that we are about to bark on a journey. It's a very messy, disruptive process to renovate your kitchen, especially if someone chooses to live in the house, which I do not recommend because then they get really intimate with everything going on. Yeah, but uh, you know, it's it's the start of a journey, and and and I think it's it's understanding that we're trying to create something exceptional. That's really the key for all our projects and something all our clients want. They're not gonna spend $100,000 on a basic well-built kitchen. They want something exceptional, and that's what we deliver.

SPEAKER_01 14:03

And I love the word you use. You're you're a partner with them, you're not just selling them a job. You're, you know, because you're gonna spend a lot of time with them and they you they better like you. And that, you know, if I if I'm sitting there going through two or three or four kitchen companies, and I have the smallest inclination that I may not like you, you're not getting a job because I know I'm gonna be working with you a lot. And so it's it's really comes down to that that rapport and that likability. Because today, to me, the differentiation between companies is no longer product. You know, it could be service, it could be, you know, different things, but it's really that interaction with the sales rep and it or the project manager. That's the differentiation. That that's what's gonna make companies say, Yeah, I want to go with you because of how I feel about working with you.

SPEAKER_00 14:48

Yeah. 100%. I couldn't agree more. And I think another thing that piggybacks on that is it's kind of a natural extension of what we do. We're designing a space, but then the outer layer to that is designing the client experience, right? How is the client walking through this? How are we making it easy? How are we eliminating decisions? And I think a key part of what we do, and I know it makes our salespeople's lives easier, is we have a high standard. You know, we're not offering the thousands of options to a client and saying, here's everything you can have. What do you want? We tailor it. We're like, this is what we think you want. Here are the three things we want. And you know, having a high standard means it's an easier process, right? Because the client gets less overwhelmed. Because that's a that's a real challenge or or something we pay attention to, is not getting the client too overwhelmed. There's sometimes showroom meetings that are two hours long, you can see the client glaze over. That's done for today. We got to call it, right? We got to process, they have to process, we have to process, and we come back obviously with the language of drawings, which is you know international. Some people don't know how to read a drawing, but drawings are uh, I feel the ultimate language. Uh, people who understand that language and it's clear, it's specific. Everything we build, everything we do to the millimeter is on that drawing, and it's gonna translate into reality, so it's a very important piece of the of the of the process for us. And those drawings get updated 14 times before hit production, right?

SPEAKER_01 16:26

Yeah. You you said something earlier when we first started recording. You said upsell and downsell. And I love that you said that because it's incredibly rare, almost non-existent, to hear a salesperson say downsell. They're always trained to upsell. How much more can I sell? And the problem, I hate the term upsell to be honest, but the the problem with that is the customer feels like you're trying to upsell them. Instead of being consultative and saying, here's what I think is going to make the project better, they're just trying to upsell to the to the better Oak Cabinet instead of pine cabinet, whatever it is. What do you mean by downsell? And I think I know what you mean, but for the audience, how could that help them build trust and rapport?

SPEAKER_00 17:11

So, I mean, some people come in with very fixed ideas. They might have had their friends do a natural marble countertop and they loved it. They said, you know, this is what I want. And at the same breath, they're saying, I love to cook, I love to bake, my husband's a mess. And marble's the most expensive countertop. I said, You sure you want marble? It may not be the right fit for you. You're gonna you're gonna spend $40,000 on your countertops and you're gonna have staining in two years that you're not gonna be happy with. You know, I can put you in a in a similar look to natural stone and a quartz that has none of those issues for half the price, right? That's what I mean by downsell. It's not so, it's it's more downsell is a term we use, but it's it's more picking the right product for their product for their goals, right? And it's not always uh the best of the best. You know, you you can want solid walnut cabinets. Like I have a client who wants a flat solid walnut door, but doesn't understand that warping is an issue with with tall doors that are solid wood and pricing is extremely high. You're better to go with a veneer, it's more consistent. And you know, his initial goal is a hundred and twenty thousand dollar kitchen. We're now at 78,000, and he's very happy. And I'm very happy because I know I put him in the right thing for him, even though he was chomping at the bit to get a hundred and twenty thousand dollar kitchen. He really, really was. But I had to make him aware of the issues with it because you know, you you don't want to sell someone something and they're not gonna be happy with that.

SPEAKER_01 18:44

See, that that's such a brilliant thing you just said there. It's like you just basically said, you know what, I don't need the extra 50 grand because you're not gonna be happy at the end of the day. And and that's the smart, that's how you have longevity in business. If every sales rep was like, oh, I'm gonna sell you the wall and I I kind of know it's gonna warp, but I'm not gonna hopefully you won't call me in three years when it warps, bigger dimensions. That's the worst mindset to have. And so many sales reps are trained that way. Sell them more, sell them more, sell them more, rather than what's the best project for this customer right now? Not the best, not the most expensive. What's the best thing for them? And that's how you stay in business.

unknown 19:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 19:22

And I think it matters. I mean, as an owner, I have a different perspective, but having this the salespeople I have have, and I've trained them in a way to care about closing the loop from sale to completion, and then you walk away. And we have what I term a ritual, but we call it a walkthrough. After every project is finished, we're adamant about it scheduling a walkthrough. And what does that walk through mean? It gives us a chance to finally meet them in their finished place in all its glory. It is a special experience to be there when someone's really happy, but we also make note of any things that need adjustment. Maybe drawer inserts they they they didn't select, but may want now that they're kind of half in the kitchen. We asked for review. We asked for the ability to maybe come to the film the space for Instagram or take photos. So it's it's for me. I guess the difference is if you're a salesperson that just wants that extra 50 grand and knows the problems, well, you're gonna be there at the end when the client's not happy and you're gonna be looking him in the face, explaining, you know, why you're in a kitchen that he's not happy with. Yeah, absolutely. So I think that's really important. Some salespeople, that's it. They sell, they move on. And and to some degree, I I agree a salesperson has to sell, but a salesperson also has to care.

SPEAKER_01 20:47

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SPEAKER_00 23:12

That's a that's a great tenant to for any young salesperson to absorb. That's that's uh I mean it's I think it's worth saying again. Say it again. I need to hear it again.

SPEAKER_01 23:21

Customers don't care about how much you know until they know about how much you care.

SPEAKER_00 23:26

Couldn't agree more.

SPEAKER_01 23:27

Good one, right? You know, you you're there to help them, not to sell them. And when you lead with helping, you're gonna sell more. That that's that's been my whole, you know, my mantra since day one. So this is really good stuff. So when you're in the house, okay, you're you're you're you have that first meeting. Are you getting that retainer check on the first meeting, or does it take a few meetings? What's your sales process like?

SPEAKER_00 23:46

Yeah, so it you know, at this point now, qualifying is is king. We actually don't go to a person's house until we've qualified them, right? Um unless it's you know the right neighborhood and they're the neighbor of the house we just finished, yeah. I don't need to qualify them. I'm gonna see them, their their neighbor. They just saw their neighbor's kitchen. That that's fine. But if someone comes in through an Instagram post and requests a quote, we basically ask them to, you know, give us more information. A lot of people, even professionals in this industry, they show up, they're like, I need a price. Okay, well, what do you want? We we don't know what you want, but they still want a price. So we try to go through an email by saying, you know, send us some inspiration photos. And like you said, people have Pinterest boards, everything at the ready. And you just have to ask the right questions. They download it all to you, and I could see, I could sit back and say, okay, these guys are looking for a title. You you can see it in what they're saying, you know. I don't, I'm not gonna be here too long. I might sell the house. Uh it's a rental. As soon as I hear it's a rental, it's not a fit, obviously. Right. But um, we get to a point where we say, look, this is starting at $100,000, or you know, this is this is a $200,000 project to do it the way you're describing. And if they're comfortable with that, let's meet. That's all it takes. A lot of times it's it is a resistance. It's a lot of ghosting. Ghosting is is so rampant today. It's like, I know these people are smart. I know these people are nice. I know these people have a lot on their plate. But when someone like I just did for a client who's in a huge rush to get quoted and the job is ready to measure, it's just a a bad situation to begin with. And I'm not jumping into it, but I took their plans, which were quite developed, they were ready to go, and I said to them, guys, honestly, this is what you need to do based on what you want. It's you know $280,000. I gave them a ton of detail, went through specs of what the cabinets include to give them everything to make a decision. I didn't hear from them. Right? Not even a thank you.

unknown 25:52

Right.

SPEAKER_01 25:53

Yeah, that that's isn't that isn't that amazing? It really is. Yeah, it's it's amazing. And do you, when you do a design, do you charge to come up with the price? Do you say, okay, you know, you know, here a designer gives you, okay, here's the kitchen that this customer wants, or a home builder, this is what I want. Are you charging them the price? Because that takes hours of your time to do that, I'm sure.

SPEAKER_00 26:13

It does, it does. I mean, we have a pretty efficient team. We have a lot of experience on our team. We can get to drawing pretty quickly. What happens though is it's not that first draft. The first draft doesn't concern me. I don't charge for it because that first draft then results in an official quote. We can adjust the numbers in the official quote without saying to them, you know, you're paying us $2,000 to do the drawing. However, we we do frame our retainer as the cost of doing drawings. So if we're doing a hundred thousand dollar kitchen, we take twenty thousand dollars, they know that's the cost of doing drawings. Now, if they pull away, that isn't returned to them because we are spending that money on doing the drawing. So we don't charge an addition, but we do get into situations where, you know, let's say there isn't a lot of time pressure, and everyone is, you know, we're sending a set of drawings. Three weeks later they come back with 16 changes, and then we make the changes, and then four weeks later it's 20 changes. We kind of get to a point where like, guys, look, we've spent the money that you've given us. So we either really get focused on finalizing soon, or we're gonna have to implement some additional charges. At that point, everyone gets their their shit together. And and it usually works up well because you have that good foundation.

SPEAKER_01 27:34

I'm gonna give you a little tip, Louie, on people who ghost. Okay. This has helped me because obviously I'm in I'm I'm selling my services as well. And you're right, you spent all this time putting a nice proposal together. You, you know, you have good conversation with them, and all of a sudden you don't hear from them again. So after probably, I think I give it three emails, or maybe even a voicemail, like two or two and one. But at the point where I don't hear from back, I simply that the last email I'll send, and it's one sentence, and I'll say, Hey Louie, have you given up on your new kitchen? Alan, question mark. That's it. Not hope you have a great day, just checking in, all that bullshit that people, you know, these salespeople are trained. Hey, the hope moving this to the top of your inbox, all that crap that you see. Yeah, I simply write, have you given up on and then I fill in the blank. And I guarantee you, 80% of the time that will get a response where it's say, no, no, no, I'm sorry. I was traveling for a month, or whatever it is, or yeah, you know what? I'm sorry I didn't get back to you. We're going in a different direction, which is fine. I'd rather get a no than not hear anything.

SPEAKER_00 28:35

So not hear again. I'm gonna use it I'm gonna use that, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 28:38

Yeah, use it. See you see if it see if it works because people, it's almost like a personal, oh, I don't want him to think I'm giving up. You know, they're almost a little embarrassed and they will respond. And then you might find out that, yeah, something happened in their life and they just haven't had time to respond to you. And you think they're jerks, but actually maybe they're not. So it's a it's a good little thing for from a follow-up standpoint that people are gonna do that.

SPEAKER_00 28:59

No, it's a it's a good closer. I I will be using that.

SPEAKER_01 29:03

How big is your sales team right now? You said you have sales reps, right?

SPEAKER_00 29:07

We have four sales reps. At the highest point, we had six. You know, we're we're dealing with high-ticket items, so you know it's not fast-paced sales, it's not same-day meetings, you know, it's scheduled, it's it's paced. So, you know, right now our team of four is is very capable.

SPEAKER_01 29:24

So what's it take from the initial okay, you qualified them from that initial appointment in person? I'm sure you're I'm sure you're meeting them all in person once they're qualified, right? 100%, yeah. Two so what's the average number of visits before you have that retainer, would you say?

SPEAKER_00 29:41

That's a good question. I mean, it we want it to be two. We want it to be two.

SPEAKER_01 29:47

Yeah, that would make sense.

SPEAKER_00 29:48

It can't be four. I'm gonna be honest. I mean, it's not gonna be four. We want it to be two, but sometimes, you know, there's there's extenuating circumstances. Knock on wood, someone's someone died in their family, they're taking a trip, and you know, they need to take a pause on on the thinking and and renovating, and that's fine. And then when they're back to us, we'll have to do a recap. And usually at that point in time, they're not coming back to ask questions, they're coming back to like, okay, what's the next step, right? Let's do this. So it's two. Yeah, and and the reality is it it can't it can't be longer than that because then you're just we're not doing any work. We're just talking about possibilities, right? There's no foundation there. It's it's just it's really a waste of time if you're meeting someone four times out of the routine.

SPEAKER_01 30:36

And from a lead standpoint, do you have pricing available on your website or is that that happens when you say the hundred thousand? Is that based on the first conversation you have with the with the homeowner, that the interested homeowner?

SPEAKER_00 30:47

It's it's a it's not on the website. Every project we do is a snowflake, everyone is different. Yeah. Right. Don't work in subdivisions. Everyone, you can check our Instagram page, every single project is different. You know, it depends on on the client's uh needs. I mean, sometimes a good indication of of a person's budget is if they've already picked their appliances and they send me the appliance specs, and I realize they spent $120,000 on the highest end appliances. That's a pretty good indication. Just on appliances. Yeah, that's Canadian, $120,000 is the you know, sub-zero wolf top of the line package for for for a kitchen these days. I know that that's our client. You know, we're we're gonna be working well together because they're looking for something exceptional, and that's and that's the difference.

SPEAKER_01 31:35

You're you said you have a sales team of four. Have they been with you for a while? Have you had to train anybody new recently?

SPEAKER_00 31:41

It's a good question. I just hired someone last week. This is his second week. Um, it's been an interesting experience because I've trained many a salesperson, but this has been new, and and I've asked him from the beginning to work with me because I'm training him on AI systems that we've implemented. You know, uh I'm I'm very passionate about you know communication being the most necessary component to good sales, even say high-end sales. And our communication now with AI, it's we really have a brain that processes, you know, uh that a new salesperson could could input an email he's about to send to a new client and it it'll make suggestions. Oh, you haven't mentioned this, this, and this. Right? A brain that knows our system and how we operate. So it's been also the easiest training I've ever done of a salesperson, you know, being nine days in. It's actually been kind of fun. And my new sales guy seems it seems like he's enjoying it too. So, but also I will say this new sales guy is not he's not a salesperson. He's a he's a carpenter that, you know, has the charm, has communication skills, has all the necessary components of a good salesperson. And and when I hired him, I had four seasoned kitchen people and him. And I chose him because I really do feel bringing in the old junk of the last 20 years is not gonna be viable for the next 20. And I want to I wanted to bring someone in as a clean slate. Did I answer your question?

SPEAKER_01 33:17

Sorry, yeah, you did, and and it and it reminds me, I've heard this a lot recently from people in the in-home world that the new people they're hiring are not really coming from sales anymore, they're coming from positions where they're, you know, uh they have to deal with people like certain bartenders, servers, you know, people like that. Because I've I've I've been saying since I've been doing this, sales is just good communication. It's not following a script. You have to have a process, obviously, but if you don't know how to be nimble within the process, if you don't know how to communicate with another human being without sounding like a sleazy salesperson, you're not gonna sell anything. So I've I've heard more off more now than I've ever heard that, yeah, we're we're looking for people who don't have prior roofing sales experience because we don't want the old rooper who's been selling roofs for 30 years because he or she's not gonna learn then, not gonna be able to adjust to a new system, not gonna be able to adjust to AI, all the old the old dogs, you know, kind of thing can't teach them new tricks. So yeah, that that's brilliant.

SPEAKER_00 34:16

Yeah, and it's it's it's hard because those old dogs are probably exceptional at what they do, but they're also fixed. And they're also, you know, there's a big chop down of that ego that has to occur, and and that's a big blow for the guys who've proven themselves 30 years in an industry to say, we're gonna do things differently now. That that's a tough adjustment. That's a tough adjustment.

SPEAKER_01 34:38

And and it's also it takes a special person to actually be accepting of that, like the old dog who says, Okay, you know what, I'm ready to. Because I, you know, I I've been in the business just like you, where you've seen all of the new things come in, like, you know, going from fax machines to I remember the mimeograph machines that we used to like, you know, crank with our hands, stuff like that. And now all of a sudden, instead of pricing with a calculator on a piece of paper and and carbon copies, now we've got iPads. And then, you know, the the technology has just grown exponentially. And there's, I can think in my head, there's a handful of these old reps. It's like, yep, I'm gonna learn the new technologies, and the other ones were kicking and screaming and complaining about it, and they're no longer around because they couldn't survive. Yeah, especially in what you're doing, which is very technical.

SPEAKER_00 35:21

There's a term you've heard before, and a lot of people have heard is AI is not gonna replace you. But someone using AI will be replacing it. Yeah. Right. And that's what it is. AI is amplif should be amplifying human expertise, not replacing it. And if you're using it that way, it's an extremely powerful tool.

SPEAKER_01 35:43

So let me let me switch gears real quick before we uh we're we're flying along here, but before we get to the ask allen segment, I'd like to know someone like you in a high-end business, 100,000 and above, how are you getting your leads? Are they coming from your website? Are you doing, you know, Google local ads? Uh, where are your leads coming from? Are they are they as expensive as they used to be? Are they going up? Give me a little bit about from the background of marketing and and how you're getting your leads in.

SPEAKER_00 36:10

Sure, yeah. I mean, uh for th from 32 years of marketing experience, I've done radio ads, magazine, I've done the Google, I've done everything. And, you know, now it's cheaper than ever to reach people, you know, and and that's the amazing part of it is my Instagram budget for a year is is 10 to 20 grand. I used to put a full page ad and a high-end magazine for quarterly issue at 10 grand an issue. Yeah, right. So so things have changed immensely. For us, how we've changed our approach is we're spending a lot of our efforts on Instagram. We're visual business, right? Yep. People get to see, we get to share the latest project in almost real time. You know, getting from filming, editing to posting could be a week where you know, our website we try to update every six months. You've got to spend twelve hundred dollars to shoot on a photographer, you know, to redo your website every six months, you got to put 10, 20 grand just in that. But Instagram is is more uh instantaneous. And it also is a built-in outreach vehicle. We can contact designers who are also on there that are in our industry, you know, comment on their work, like their posts. It's a very interactive approach. And what we love to do when we work with a new interior designer is film all the content for that project and give it to them for free. We invite them to the project, we'll film you, you know, however you want to do it for your page. And a real key in expanding your reach on Instagram is when you do post something that another person or professional is involved in, you tell them in advance that we're gonna send you a collab request. It's called collab collaboration request. When they get that message and they okay it, now your post is seen by all their people, all their followers. So, you know, in that we've had uh amazing responses, a lot of leads coming through there. You know, we we have a video that has 920,000 views. It's considered viral on our page. I think we filmed that in two minutes. You know, it really we really did. It's like it was like our Beatles hit, really. You know, it didn't take much, it just happened. And it's it's an enjoyable process because it's more real. We get to interact and talk about our story, get our message across in real time with some amazing visuals in behind. The biggest challenge with it though, is everyone's attention span is three to five seconds long.

unknown 38:47

Right.

SPEAKER_00 38:47

You can have the best video, but you kind of have to have a bit of a hook in the beginning. And that's been something we're starting to master. But for us, that that is a that the biggest marketing vehicle, other than our other biggest marketing vehicle, has been that way from day one is referrals.

SPEAKER_03 39:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 39:05

Doing an amazing job. You know, at that final walkthrough we do with the clients, you know, if the if the situation's right, we'll also maybe see if they're open to having a wine and cheese night where we supply the wine and cheese. Yeah, but friends come over to kind of show off the kitchen. I usually become a tour guide there. I don't really sell my gum, just show them all the things we did in this and why we did certain things. I enjoy it. And it's really about more than ever building relationships, building that trust, getting your story out. What are you about? You know, like we have a line we use, we believe in the transformative power of exceptional design, precision craftsmanship, and unwavering attention to detail. That is what we're about in a nutshell.

SPEAKER_01 39:52

It's great stuff because I've had a couple of branding experts on the podcast, and I remember one, Stephanie Couch, talking about she deals with contractors exclusively, and she's like, she'll talk to a contractor who's been in business for 20 years, she's like, okay, send me some before and after pictures, and he would respond, I don't have any, which is mind-boggling. You know, people love before and after pictures, and I even think people, I don't think contractors do this enough. I think people love time lapses during pictures as well. Like you can buy metaglasses now, film two or three days of installation through a time lapse, and in a two-minute video, you can see a gutted kitchen go from that to completed. People eat that crap up, right?

SPEAKER_00 40:32

You can build metaglasses now or paired with Muse's AI. You could probably film and create a post just by speaking.

SPEAKER_01 40:40

Yeah, yeah, it's it's crazy stuff what you can do. So, and and I encourage the contractors that are listening, even the sales reps, uh, you know, I think I don't I don't want to be negative on sales reps, but it it's my experience. A lot of them are negative, especially in this in this industry. A lot of them are lazy. They just want the leads to come in, go run the lead, and go home and and you know, watch the ballgame or play Call of Duty. And that's not how you run a business. For me, or for any sales rep, if you just sold a job and that thing was turned out to be beautiful, you should be posting the before and after pictures on your own social media. Look what I just did. Because now I'm gonna get a referral if someone sees it, right? It just makes sense. It's just amazing how many sales reps don't do that. So yeah, kudos to you for being, you know, you're in a business that's a visual business. You it's a touch and feel visual business. You have to embrace that.

SPEAKER_00 41:27

Well, you just have to tell the market who you are. The market's not gonna know who you are, right? You tell the market who you are. You know, we we post projects we're super proud of and ones that have a story, and we like to tell that story and you know, connect with other people who might be think of doing their kitchen or just design buffs or or whoever. Yeah, I agree with you 100%. They they should be doing more, and and I see it every day. I've worked with contractors for years that are amazing. They don't even have a website, even today. No, so if you talk to them about Instagram, they have no clue. They have no and but they've been they're successful and super busy and the best of the business, but they they kind of never needed to advertise. They're just they're just that type of contractor.

SPEAKER_01 42:13

Yeah, they're they're and and but I think that that's that's becoming the dinosaur. You know, they're they're slowly going away.

SPEAKER_00 42:19

No, those guys do not exist anymore, really. Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_01 42:23

Hey dwellers, when was the last time someone actually evaluated the presentation your salespeople are using in the home? Not your close rate, not your sales process, your actual presentation. Because how you tell your story, how you demonstrate your value and connect with homeowners is the difference between a sale and no sale. That's why I love our sponsor of the Ask Allen segment, Engage, I-N-G-A-G-E, and what they are now offering our selling in the dwelling listeners. You see, Engage is a beautiful interactive presentation platform built specifically for in-home sales teams. And right now they are offering a free personalized sales pitch review. Their team will review your presentation and help identify opportunities to make it even better. No cost, no obligation. Just visit info.engage.io forward slash dwelling. That's info.engage i-n-g-a-g-e.io forward slash dwelling to claim your free sales pitch review. Remember, a great product gets you in the game, but a great presentation helps you win it. All right, well, the choir just sang, Louie, which means we are time for the Ask Alan segment. And this one, I was boring Louis. What's that?

SPEAKER_00 43:39

I was looking forward to this.

SPEAKER_01 43:40

Yeah, this this is a good one. I'm always looking at the questions coming up for my guests, and I was a little nervous because I'm like, I don't really have a question for Louis. And this literally came in yesterday, and it's right up Louis's alley. So I'm gonna read it. It's from Dave from Grand Rapids, Michigan. So Dave writes in I own my own interior modeling company. Company, mostly new kitchens and bathrooms, and have been in business for close to 15 years. We have always had a great reputation, and he puts in parentheses we have four point five ranking out of five stars with over six hundred reviews. So congratulations, Dave. That's awesome. Recently, though, I have had a customer who is flat out batshit crazy. That is quote unquote what Dave wrote. Batshit crazy. Everything we do in his eyes is wrong. He hates all of my installers, and all he does is yell at me every day. The job is basically done at this point. And to be honest, it's done really, really well. And he is still threatening me with a one-star review if I don't lower the price or take some money off. If you have anyone on the show coming up who can offer some suggestions on how to handle this either now or if it happens in the future, I would greatly appreciate it. So, Dave, that is a great question. I'm sure many people listening have had batshit crazy customers. How would you answer Dave's question, Louie?

SPEAKER_00 45:03

Well, look, I think there's a lot we don't know. It's it's kind of a synopsis. It sounds like Dave is a great company and he cares about what he does. I've had some batshit crazy clients too. Um but but they should never scare you. You know, if a batshit crazy client scares you, you don't recede. And I'm not saying be overbearing, but don't recede. Meet it, meet it head on, you know, and find out what the motivation is. A lot of times it's fear, right? They're they're they may be afraid that the job is gonna turn out the way we want, or uh an installer asked to use his bathroom and he shouldn't have asked to use his bathroom. That's that's a big one that can set people off. But what I would say to him is, and again, I mean you're he's probably at the tail end of it, it's probably been resolved. Maybe a court case is going on. I don't know. Yeah, exactly. Right. You you never you never wanted to get to get it that far, right? If I ever have a batch of crazy client, I would I would meet them. I'm not emailing, right? Phone calls are sufficient to really have a conversation of how we can make the process better for them. Like, what can we really do? You don't like our installers, great. I have another great installer I could send to you. No problem. I'll switch him up. This guy's amazing, he's been in business 30 years. He's but you know, if that's the issue, we'll resolve that. But you know, there's also people who have nefarious motives, right? There's also people that are just trying to save a buck in a in a in a soulless, gutless way, and and they think throwing a few threats around will will pocket them 10 grand. Well, that 10 grand is blood money as far as I'm concerned, even if they get it. And that's just bad juju for that person. But I guess in that situation, if someone's really overbearing, I would tell my entire team to be extra nice. Whenever you're encountering this client, be extra nice. If you're gonna sneeze, ask them, is it okay? You know, like be extra nice and attentive to their needs and pay attention. Continue doing your work. That's the ultimate focus. Do a great job. And then uh I would have more touch points baked in, right? And I don't do this all the time where it's like, here's what happened today at your house. It can get uh a little intense if you have multiple clients, but you know, every three days I'll touch base with clients. I might do it every two days and say, hey, this is what happened on site today, and this is what we discovered, or this is what's gonna happen tomorrow. You know, let me know if you're okay with this, or is there, you know, some way we can accommodate you tomorrow? Because we are working in their home, and it sounds like in this case, that person I'm I think was living in the house when this project was going on because he's saying the installers were, you know, he didn't like the installers. He's probably too close to to the fire, you know? Right.

SPEAKER_01 47:52

And the homeowner's not gonna know why you're ripping the wall down. They they may get mad that you're ripping the wall the way you're ripping, or something like that. You're right.

SPEAKER_00 47:58

Exactly. So tough situation, but know that it's not it's not gonna hurt you, right? It's not gonna hurt what's the name, Robert?

SPEAKER_01 48:08

Uh David and Grandra's mission.

SPEAKER_00 48:10

So it's not gonna hurt him, it's not gonna kill his business, right? You you you're cordial, you get through, you if you stand on on your merits and you say, I did a good job, let the client know. I believe I did a good job. You know, I had a I had a actually reminds me of a story. I had a really big project that I didn't win. Went to another company. Seven months later, they came back because that other company didn't produce a drawing in seven months. Oh which is crazy. Right came back to me, but she's she was desperate at that time. We butted heads me and the client in the beginning, but she came back, tail between her legs, and I did everything I could to make her happy. It was fast-paced, the job was behind, and I think we did an exceptional job. We did some drawer ins inserts for her, and some of them, you know, were a millimeter off and they shook a bit, and we figured out a way to to to stabilize them in the drawer. Minor problem, but you know, she complained about everything. And at the end of this process, and I feel I did an amazing job, okay at that walkthrough, at that ritual, right? She looks me in the eyes and says, I just want you to know as a company, you're beneath me. No those are her words. Yeah, you're beneath me, really. It's you're lower than than what I expect. And we and everything was perfect. There was no issue. I mean, we we had to refinish a door in her daughter's room, and I guess we got the door there really fast, and it was still smelling a bit. And then she called me, she's like, How could you expose my daughter to to gas and fumes? And I'm like, Okay, well, we'll take the door out of the room for two days, let's put it in your garage. And because, you know, we're trying to get it done really quick for her. You know, situations like that, I think, just just irked her, but but the work was always good. And and to be honest, uh what I'll say to Dave too, and um in that situation, I don't think twice about it. I know I did a good job. Right. I told her an interior designer who called me four months later to do some additional cabinetry. I forbade him, I told him what she told me. He's like, ah, okay, I understand. And then two weeks later he gave me another job for one of his other clients. Right. So yeah, I I wouldn't put much stock in batshit crazy clients. Just, you know, hopefully you don't have to run run across them.

SPEAKER_01 50:28

Yeah, and you're gonna get them every now and then. And and and Dave, what I would add, I'm gonna add a couple things. One, one bad review is not gonna kill your business. You know, 50 bad reviews are gonna hurt your business. But if you got, you said you got 600 reviews and you got one guy sitting there with one star, everyone in the world knows, okay, that when you look at them one star, you go, that customer's batshit crazy because everyone else loves this guy. So what's wrong with the customer? So I would look at it that way. It doesn't sound like you have very many bad reviews at all, Dave. And Louie, Louie, you said something that I cannot stress enough in this business. You said go and meet them face to face. You said maybe pick up the phone, but emails and texting, electronic communication in in a situation where you have a customer that's not happy will never ever resolve the problem. You have to go and face to face. And at the very minimum, make the phone call and tell them you'll you can meet them there the next day. If you go face to face, almost every single time, you will get some sort of resolution because people are not going to treat you face to face as they would in an email or a text. Because they get, you know, they get they get you know the fake, what do they call it, the fake courage or something like that? They become like you know keyboard warriors. Yeah, keyboard warriors where they can they think they can say anything they want because they they don't see you face-to-face, and all of a sudden you show up and say, tell me what's wrong. Oh crap, the owner's here now, but at least they're gonna tell you and you're gonna come up to a resolution. So I think the face-to-face comment is huge. And hopefully, Dave, you're doing that. But like you said, Louie, you know what? Do your best job, wrap this thing up, and if he gives you one star, move on. But don't take money off. I would if you did a good job, do not take money off. But never recommend that.

SPEAKER_00 52:07

If they want money off, they can go through the courts, but you're standing on your merit, you did everything right. That doesn't really hold water.

SPEAKER_01 52:13

Yeah, no, it doesn't. So, well, you just gave me, I was gonna ask you if you have any funny stories to tell, but that that's a good one because I I try to ask my guests, you know, give me a give me a story that stands out that's interesting to tell. Anything else in your in your 35 years that like jumps out of you like a crazy story that would be funny?

SPEAKER_00 52:30

I mean, there yeah, there's tons. I mean, I had one uh situation where a daughter didn't know it at the time, but but spearheading her mom into a renovation and the home she grew up in, she'd married and moved out, kitchen was dated, and I'd known her from a previous project. She invited me to her mom's house. She set up the meeting. So we're in the mom's house and we're talking about the kitchen. And the mom was a little nervous, pretty normal. She's an older lady, or I think her husband wasn't around, and she was on her own. I'm trying to explain the process, talk about design. Her daughter was very involved, and I think at one point she's like, Okay, can you can you stop talking to her daughter so I can talk to the man and tell him what I want? And it got pretty tense. She got a little miffed, and you know, as the conversation went on, she wasn't letting up. So there's a lot of back and forth to it reached a boiling point where the daughter ran out of the house. I'm left with a mom who didn't really want this renovation, was very upset that her daughter just ran out. And I'm sitting there saying, Should I leave at this point? Yeah. Because I don't want to put any pressure on you. If you're not ready, let me know. And she's like, No. And we finished the meeting. We did the kitchen a few months later, and she is now both the daughter and the mom, wonderful people, or are one of my best clients.

SPEAKER_01 53:52

Oh, that's awesome. Great stuff. All right. Well, Louie, we are running out of time, and this has been great. I I really appreciate spending some time with us and and giving giving us some nuggets on on how you've been so successful in the last you know 30 plus years or you know, 53 with your dad and your uncle who started this. So, how do they, if if someone's in the Toronto area, what is it?

SPEAKER_00 54:12

It's it's the OlympicKitchen.ca, right?ca is our website. Uh, Instagram's uh the best uh way to kind of engage with some of our latest projects. Any DM you send, I will get personally happy to respond to it. Check out our latest projects. There's a lot of great content coming up in the next few weeks.

SPEAKER_01 54:30

Awesome. Well, Louie, I really want to thank you for being here. This has been great stuff, and I want to thank you, everyone out there in the audience, for joining us on this episode of Selling in the Dwelling. Remember, visit the website, sellinginthedwelling.com, send me a question, because Dave from Grand Rapids is getting a free t-shirt for his awesome question, and you can be next. And also visit our title sponsor, Paradigm Vendo. It's paradigmvendo.com forward slash dwelling. That's it for us today, everyone. Thanks for joining us on Selling in the Dwelling. We'll see you next time.